Charlie Rose:

Mikheil Saakashvili is here. He is The President of the Republic of Georgia. In August 2008 Georgia-Russia fought a brief war of the breakaway region of south Ossetia. Today Russia and Georgia are in immediate talks of Russia's bid to join WTO. Georgia is a member, i.e. it has veto power. This issue was high of Vice President Joe Biden agenda during his trip to Moscow. I am in pleased to have back this table with President of Georgia. Welcome

Mikheil Saakashvili:

Thank you for invite me. Always nice to meet you back into your studio.

Charlie Rose:

You once said that you want, first of all, for Georgia to be a bit of Switzerland and a bit of Singapore...

Mikheil Saakashvili:

I still insist on that and it has become much more of Switzerland and much more of Singapore, actually. Georgia's transformation from what was totally failed state with mega corruption, one of the worst places in the world of doing business in to what we are now. There are certain benchmarks all of us to follow. So, the World Bank says we are the world's number one economic reformer based on the period of surrounded time that I have been President. In Transparency International, the main corruption watchdog in the world, they made polling and basically they said that no other country in the world progressed on fighting corruption as much as we did, so we are number one fighter with corruption. I think it was a mental revolution, it was very well said by the Economist magazine. Mental revolution - it is everything. When I came to your studio for the first time, by that moment 98% of Georgia said in Gala poll that they encountered corruption. Last month the poll actually put these figures at 0, 4% . It is also the way how people behave, the way how they interact with institutions, the whole body language, architecture and everything.

Charlie Rose:

Your architecture means the fact that the Police Stations have glass fronts...

Mikheil Saakashvili:

Interior of the department of Interior Ministry was that building was voted by dignities of architectural newspapers as the best building of the world in 2008. But, also, every police station and now all the custom service and other government agencies they are putting glass and you see well-dressed people, I mean when we are talking about policemen, sitting at their computers in busy neighborhoods and people can interact going to that. This is a service, they are not to keep close eye on the neighborhood or on the people, certainly, for political control, they are to serve people and that is the mentality that people start to interact within institutions. On the one hand, they see it as the service, but there is much more respect for such service. People used to fear institutions, people used to despise institutions; now they see them as they service to them and they like them. Actually, what is the best thing in terms of mental revolution is that initially every political figure in Georgia went better than any institutions. Now every single institution, even if government on these stages, are quite popular, but it is all across of all kinds of staffs, I have seen ups and downs. But every institution is more popular, like parliament is more popular than single parliamentarians, like presidency is more popular than me.

Charlie Rose:

So Institutions have popularity in Georgia. what is the relationship with the US government.

Mikheil Saakashvili:

First of all, you mentioned investment, we signed the deal with Donald Trump...

Charlie Rose:

A company from the region is going to build in the name of Trump Company.

Mikheil Saakashvili:

It is a multi-company effort and there will be investment funds from the US as well, a very active part would be coming oversees. Of course Trump will be doing all the promotion, marketing and putting such is also investing all of his efforts.

Charlie Rose:

Yes, it is his business

Mikheil Saakashvili:

You mentioned I came here last time when we just were fresh from this invasion, of the war, but now it is also the symbol, it is just more than another building; it is in a place which has amazing number of new development, new private investment. Basically, it is a benchmark as well, like all the things we have on the paper of the World Bank, like benchmark of visuals, benchmark of people building with regard to the US government. To come back to your question, We have very good working relations with Obama administration. I had two recent meetings with President Obama in Washington and in Lisbon during NATO summit. They have been consistently supporting our territorial integrity and supporting the idea of the occupation. Indeed, they were one of the first government in the world to call Russian presence in Georgia illegal military occupation. They certainly are calling on Russia to end it and they have been giving us financial support, especially immediately after the war, at that moment pretty essential.

Charlie Rose:

Here was the other sight of that . The President also wants to reset relationships with Russia and doing that there are some feeling that things that you might have expected from Bush administration are not coming from the Obama administration. Having to do with their fall out support for NATO membership ? That is all because they do not want to antagonize to Russia as they are trying to reset the relationship? Is that what you believe?

Mikheil Saakashvili:

Official position of the US administration as well as their efforts in the organization have remained the same that Georgia needs to get...

Charlie Rose:

It means that Georgia will get NATO membership...

Mikheil Saakashvili:

Probably NATO membership is a consensus within organization and we, Georgia are as the best people in the class we are always getting excellent grades on reforms, including military one. But, also, the democratization and all the other things that are essential for full-fledge membership. But then we never happened to pass to the next grade and that is not because of the US administration, that is because of absence of consensus in Europe there is no secret that it is based on geopolitical factors in the region.

Charlie Rose:

You know that I read your quotes, that are words of your mouth which said you had some reservations about Obama administration after the natural relations you had with President Bush?

Mikheil Saakashvili:

I would not say so. The idea of reset initially there were obvious affairs that would involve also some kind of calling towards the idea of democracies around Russia or America's support for people's aspire for freedom will take its place but I have seen on this particular issue that President Obama, Vice-president Biden who came also to visit us for the second time, Secretary Hillary Clinton, a very good friend also came to visit several times and to see us several times. They have been very consistent. They have been very clear. They would not accept and they are not going to do anything at the expense of the others. That was the initial fear.

Charlie Rose:

You were very happy with the US relationship with Russia and it is taking this direction. Because Vice-president Biden just went to see President Medvedev. He said that Russia's membership in WTO was the highest priority for the United States. Were you on the membership of Russia into WTO?

Mikheil Saakashvili:

Let us face it. Russia's membership is not bad for anybody, especially for Russia's neighborhood.

Charlie Rose:

So, it is in your interest Russia to be a member of WTO?

Mikheil Saakashvili:

It is in our interest of Russia to get the regular kind rule of low, international low, or a kind of regime, also, in our region. Having said that the US comes to this position after many years of negotiations, after many years of sorting out bilateral trade issues and the same is true for Europeans and the neighbors of Russia. There are issues still left out with Georgia. Russian government not only does it recognize our Government, but our borders. But for the long time they refused even to have the idea that the country of Georgia exists. They should talk to it and sort out the issues exactly the same way as would do the great nation of the US but as well small neighbors they have around them. Actually, finally we came to the point when they have to come to bilateral negotiation with us and there was the first round. I have to tell you, there have been attempts from the Russian side to go to the US and say: "Georgia is your problem. They are your clients, so it is part of the package. We sort out things with you, and then you will go and tell them."

Charlie Rose:

Russia has come to the US and said: "you go and tell Georgians what the deal is and you make it work"?

Mikheil Saakashvili:

Yes, absolutely. To the credit of this administration they have told very clearly:" Come on guys. These are your issues, your problems". They have told the same to me. These are bilateral issues. We respect you as independent countries. You should be talking to each other. We are not going to sort it out for you. It is a fair position. Basically, this is based on the procedures of this organization.

Charlie Rose:

Have you prepared to veto the admission of Russia into WTO?

Mikheil Saakashvili:

I would not like to get to that point.

Charlie Rose:

Would you prepare to do that to really get there?

Mikheil Saakashvili:

We, certainly, don't want to do that. It is up to Russia now. It really takes some diplomacy and some mutual compromises. And so on.

Charlie Rose:

You are saying that veto to the Russia's admission in the WTO is for Russian troops to withdraw?

Mikheil Saakashvili:

General policy of Georgia is certainly to withdraw the troops. This is clear-cut and we will never receive it. That is our absolute political priority with Russia. But having said that WTO has very specific technical issues connected with control of customs borders, with mutual recognition of the customs regimes and economic relationships between the countries. This is very technical issue, but we are willing to consider it as a technical issue, provided that there is a very sensible approach and minimum respect from the part of Russia. No matter how small Georgia is, it also is a full-fledge country and they have to deal with its legitimate, economic, customs and borders interests. We are ready to find solutions to that.

Charlie Rose:

You have any appreciation of their innocence feeling that NATO membership that goes to Georgia and Ukraine is just too close to their borders to make them comfortable?

Mikheil Saakashvili:

Their reactions are much wider than that. I think what is much more alarming this is just not installation of NATO's flag next to their borders. They are already used to it. They have it in other places. The problem here is that this small Georgia with they have fought was decapitated. They called me political corpse in the aftermath of the 2008 invasion. They gave me just a few weeks to survive. But they also thought that Georgia would never recover. Nowadays see that people from all around, from Pakistan, President Otonbaeva spoke about learning from Georgia. Ukraine, Moldova, government Ministers, heads of governments, Presidents, in our own region - Armenia and Azerbaijan - these people are talking a lot about learning from Georgian reformers. Indeed, lots of Russians, including some government officials saying: "Look at this country if they could make it..."

Charlie Rose:

Your point is...

Mikheil Saakashvili:

I think this is in some way almost ideological. The way how we managed to tackle corruption, the way how we managed to free our business and to live free speech kind of country in the Post Soviet space.

They think it is contagious, because until now they believe that there are only two kinds of regimes in former Soviet states - Yeltsin kind of chaos. It was a kind of democracy, but totally chaos or Putin type authoritarian stability. Now they see a country that is building democracy at the point succeeding. This year already might have even double-digit growth, at least first month we had 9.6 or 9.7 and that is the year's trend.

Charlie Rose:

In 2011 there is nine point. .

Mikheil Saakashvili:

In January we had 9.7, but actually for the whole year. Project of growth is for the whole year.

Charlie Rose:

Therefore make sure that is Singapore part of your dream?

Mikheil Saakashvili:

They are seeing visuals already. It is not only that but they see that we have a country that is giving computers to kids at school, we have invited 10 000 English language teachers to teach English. We are building new American based Universities, inviting Americans to build new technological campuses, there are amazing new roads, new cities and this country is coming back. It is not only just what is on papers, but it is reality. This country still has a freedom of speech. We are not perfect, we have lots of problems. We have lots of obstacles. But sometimes it is almost funny, it reminds me when I was a kid, Cold War's America was perfect for us. It was an absolute ideal, no criticism was expected. In Russia obviously press is under control and they are really furious, but there is a small segment of social networks, whatever small newspapers they have, that are still less independent and they are absolutely idealic about Georgia, Georgia is perfect. But sometimes, from our point of view, when regular Georgian reads these articles they are initiated by both, on the one hand we are not as bad as official media, but on the other hand, we cannot be as good, because we live in our country, we know we have props. I think that is the major problem, not just NATO membership there.

Charlie Rose:

This is what your foreign minister said recently - he wants Georgia be sovereign in the south of Russia. He said: "Russia should feel that wherever it goes, whatever idea or issue discusses is forced to speak about occupied territories. This is what has been happening. Look at the discussions on the new European security architecture, on Russia's WTO session and our convention arms control. The Russian Federation is constantly forced to have very unpleasant conversations about Georgia. Sooner or later, but sooner rather than later Russia will withdraw its occupying forces from Georgian Territory." Do you agree with him?

Mikheil Saakashvili:

He has the point and that is the logic of the whole Cold War. Hopefully, Cold War is over.

Charlie Rose:

Hopefully?

Mikheil Saakashvili:

I mean it is over overall but not in the heads of the guys that are occupying our territory. They are building bard-wire and basically, we have half a million people in the country of less than five million that cannot go back to their houses.

Charlie Rose:

What is happening to those people?

Mikheil Saakashvili:

They came in 2008 under pretext of helping South Ossetians to protect themselves from Georgia, but somehow the whole population left there is between 5 or 8 thousand people. Mostly old people who have no other place to go. Most of the population fled to other parts of Georgia. What I am saying is that the place is empty and what we are saying is -look, the place is empty, you are building bard-wires not to let people back to their homes. Still what you do, we will develop, we will show whoever is remaining in these territories. All these skyscrapers, Trump, all these five-star hotels, new enterprises and we will show them the rest of the country is free from fear, from poverty and has future. Then even those people who are left, you cannot control even them. You know there is no way and I think this is perfectly shown in Northern Africa and in Middle East right now. There is a military machine in the world, no matter how brutal it is, that can control people if people change their mind.

Charlie Rose:

Speaking of them, what would you recommend that NATO member countries, including the US do about the nofly-zone?

Mikheil Saakashvili:

As you rightly said, we are small country with an occupied territory. We have our issues, not in position of to tell exactly what Americans or the other should do on concrete military or political situation. However, I think what is happening in the wider Middle East and in Northern Africa is a brilliant revival of the idea of the idealistic politics. Because we have seen the resurgence of realism recently, in the minds of people and also in some policy-makers. That means saying - come on, all these ideals crap, we should take it away. The world is about pure interests, big players, big deals.

Charlie Rose:

And you hear saying ideas and principles..

Mikheil Saakashvili:

People are saying that. Ultimately, if America only plays according to those rules. I remember one very important political scientist said about 2008 war. Here is the argument of my very close friend, unfortunately, who died recently, Richard Hoolbruke was a really brilliant idealistic, pragmatic guy. He was as pragmatic as one could get, but was 100 percent idealist. They had argument and Hoolbruke was the outsider and the other guy was saying, "Come on, Georgia is like a small player coming to table with big players. We know cards in its pocket. We don't want to deal with those players. So, what this place is showing now, America's main value for people like us is that America, besides having hard power or economic leverage, it is also an idea. It is much bigger thing than just another country. That is what makes America so strong. The more freedom there is in the world safer America will be, it is much more pragmatic. I think there is nothing that can stop freedom; it is inevitable that is going to happen and America should lead it and, I think, should not be scared of it. I think, ultimately, there will be a progress.

Charlie Rose:

How is America leading it. As you have mentioned, everybody knows this beauty of what is happening is that came from people on the ground. The US and other nations share their principals and their aspirations, but there is some danger and some suggests that they are better off on their own. That, in fact, if you start supporting too much, impression will be that, somehow, they are those brave people serving American interest or Western interest.

Mikheil Saakashvili:

But this is much wider than that. Look, revolutions are not only about waving flags or what happens on some particular squares, however, beautiful it may look. We managed to do it without violence, it looked very beautiful. But the main jobs start after that. When people go back home to their problems, they want jobs; they want future for their kids, they want house care and there should be somebody in position to deliberate within the framework of freedom, freedom for speech.

Charlie Rose:

What we should do for the people who are on the ground?

Mikheil Saakashvili:

That is where the role of America comes. First of all, to tell the people that there is future for them and then to help to build that future.

Charlie Rose:

What we would do, specifically, as the president has said and other Presidents have said from France, from Great Britain, from the US and other places in the world have said - "We agree with these principles by which we support those people who want to have a democratic government in their country"?

Mikheil Saakashvili:

I think that is very powerful already to say that. I can tell you from our experience. I mean moral support might count much more at resolute moment, because when you know we are on the right side and you are looking at free world for that to say. Free world was old-fashioned world for some. But in this country there is a problem with lack of freedom. This is not an empty world. They are listening to the whole world and that moral support is very important. About concrete actions I am not in position to recommend anything as I said.

Charlie Rose:

But you are saying to do something more than rhetoric.

Mikheil Saakashvili:

I think it is much long-term process.

Charlie Rose:

The things are changing on the ground as we speak in Libya. .

Mikheil Saakashvili:

I think there is nothing that can stop freedom. What I believe to happen, I think, these moments ultimately will lead to much more democratic and free world. However, the worst thing will be if cameras leave and then people forget everything. That is much bigger my fear than whatever is done right now, because ultimately, freedom will prevail in all those places.

Charlie Rose:

Let me do quickly return to 2008 and also to the fore-mentioned Richard Hoolbruke. I am in a car on the way of airport to fly to Tehran to interview President Ahmadinejad . But Richard Hoolbruke is on the way to see you. At the same time we talked, we have a conversation. He mentioned you, he talked to me. Then we were on the way to leave, coming over with friends on the phone.

Mikheil Saakashvili:

He was in Libya. In Benghazi couple of days ago

Charlie Rose:

My point is what kind of advice would you be getting? first of all, what was Richard therefore, just for supporting, for his government position at this time?

Mikheil Saakashvili:

He had predicted that war, actually he wrote an article in Washington Post when he said that the war would be erupted and unless to constant effort was done by Western power to really stop it and put it into that effort, there was some effort but it was not enough obviously. But he was there actually.

Charlie Rose:

Were there a moral support for you?

Mikheil Saakashvili:

It was very important and this is exactly the point what I am trying to say. Richard Holbrooke did not bring any weapons, tanks, he certainly had not declared nofly-zone. We were bombed by two hundred planes. We have been bombed, tanks were coming towards Tbilisi, so I asked him, Richard what you advise me to do now and he said no matter what happens, fight still the end, this is the moment, fight! And because there were people who advised, also foreigners to leave the capital, to evacuate, you are the main target..

Charlie Rose:

What was Rice telling you? What was George Bush telling you?

Mikheil Saakashvili:

I think George Bush ultimately told Russians to stop. He contributed, I mean he went on television together with secretary Rice and Secretary Gates. He, basically, announced the start of military humanitarian operation, which did not involve no-flies on, did not involve sending us any weapons. It, basically, involved moving some maneuvers around Georgia, with mostly humanitarian task. By the way, they ruled out military intervention that was pretty convincing argument that we were not abandoned and they were standing by us. At that moment I can tell you moral support was absolutely decisive, and not only from the administration, but people like, indeed, Senator Biden was also shown up. We were on the roof of the hotel which had the lights switched off, because there were Russian planes flying over and bombed, we are not leaving we are here and he said I am US Senator I am standing here. People liked that and saw this. Senator McCain basically abandon his election company. I remember he was calling me ten times a day, at that time Senator Obama was calling me every day, this things were absolutely decisive. When we talk about people who are fighting for their survival, also physical one, people talking a lot about arms and bomb setting, people never underestimate the power of moral support.

Charlie Rose:

That is very good point of view. Would you have any regrets about this in the way you have handled this, would you see anything different later, did you learn any lesson yourself?

Mikheil Saakashvili:

Look, I am learning and being self critical all the time, but one thing we did to write we did not surrender and we did not give up our dream, this crazy thing - dream which lots of people thoughts also rational in being full-fledged free, successful democracy and no matter what those invaders grab once they will have to hand it back but the idea is still there and the spirit is still there and of course we know ourselves that we make mistakes, but of course as in every democracy we are being criticized all the times, of course we are far from perfection and there are always being things we, I personally regret, however, I think the main idea is still alive and it will be carried on.

Charlie Rose:

By your relationships with Russia there are those who believe you want to poll quite as Putin, that you want when your term is over to be the Prime Minister, that you want to stay in power ...

Mikheil Saakashvili:

Well, I am not Putin right now. I will never be Putin there is my definition it is not possible. A. I am living in a democracy with institutions much stronger than personality. B. I think I have still all my three years to go, it accounts for so many things and I am much more interested in where my country will be in that three years then where I will be. This is crucial period, because we are doing amazing reforms. I do not want now to discus my personal career. I do not want to disturb and undermine my reforms

Charlie Rose:

You were saying to me very actively:" I am not ruling this out right now, but I might do when my term is over"...

Mikheil Saakashvili:

Look, I was the one who changed constitution there was strong push inside the country and from foreign experts to kill the institute of presidency, never be any more. I mean, I cannot try for it. I was the one that insisted that President should have been kept strong, indeed, I had my point and in the end that was supported. So, presidency in Georgia will be strong: A. there will be no so leader; B. all main programs are for just for two or three years to come. Now having said that, I am interested in my country and I never announce anything now in for the sake for not being... can you imagine me saying anything on that it is just automatically undermines the whole agenda. Of course if you are just Tony Blair or George Bush in a country with well established institutions it must still work, although they have had problems. Can you imagine small aspiring country having claimed that president at the most resolute moment for insisting, I do not think it is going to work even for the sake of respect for you Charlie, I am not going into those discussions, those discussions are not helpful for immediate future of my country and I am sure that will be democratic, free. I think it will help we respect of the rest of democratic world for the sake of the process and the institutions.

Charlie Rose:

Thank you for coming here and we will continue to watch Georgia because of its strategic location and because of what you are trying to do.